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sgtsampay

V-twin Desiel or gas?

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"So is sucking down 5-6gallons of gas for 11 drives decent?"

That depends on the size of the driveways, the amount of time is spent clearing them, and the amount of snow...too many varibles to say yes or no to the question.

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about 2- 2 1/2 hours blowing and i would use up the entire under seat tank. Wow, I guess I really can't complain after hearing the KT18 milage. LOL.

Also, would 1st gear high and a single stage kill the motor if not carefull? I was throwing about 18in bank at the EOD.

I'm wandering if I'm jsut being to picky or wierd...

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20 dollars worth of gas to clear 11 driveways? I don't think that's bad at all. :thumbs:

How much would it cost you if you had to shovel them by hand or pay someone else to clean them?

You could always ask the other people to provide the fuel and/or pay you to clean their driveways.

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TT. The thing is i never though of it liek that before. Hmmm.

Also, I do 11 but only get paid for about 4 so that means I make about 80ish per storm. But still, that not bad at all.

Also, how big is the under seat tank anyway?

Also, I just remember i never did completely clean out the carb. I jsut put gas into it and ran it. Mabye, it needs a carb cleaning. :thumbs: If that fixes it, then I need ot hide for many mouths...

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Would this engine give me the same or better performance than the Briggs?

I'm asking cause i found that the torque curve on the diesel is flat from 1500-3600 rpm. So, I think it should handle loads better than the Briggs. I'm looking for a torque curve of the BRiggs now for comparison..

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So after much thinking and such, I will try the 10HP diesel clone on the big tractor and see how far that gets me. I also saw that if that still isn;t enough then i will jsut put the 10HP on the Raider and then get a 13HP diesel. :thumbs:

I really like the low price of the 10HP though. $600 for a new engine? Thats not that much more than a rebuild of the old briggs. Thanks guys for all of your help.

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I've been tempted for a long time to do a swap with a 10hp clone. Have you seen Steve's thread? http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/index.php?...10511&hl=diesel

I almost got one for my 520H, but found I could fix the Onan a little cheaper. Mind you I havent run the Onan yet, if it doesnt go any good I'll get a diesel for it.

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I'm liking that V twin diesel, 25hp, I have a 520 that needs a engine, the China part bothers me, but their stuff is getting better, as far as the more expensive items, I looked up the company, they have been making engines a few years and have pretty good ratings.

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I've got the 13 and it's really noisy. A lot louder than your briggs, not exhaust noise but engine noise. I wear earplugs.

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I always wear hearing protection, that way i don;t have loud ringing in my ears and i can hear my radio. :thumbs:

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:thumbs:

I had an interesting thought while reading this thread, and wondered if any of you have a reasonable answer.

My understanding of engines in general is not my strong suite, so bear with me here.

Gas engines operate at roughly 8 to 9:1 compression ratios. Diesels around 20:1. Therefore I would assume diesels have a much higher (~ x2) HP rating for equivalent CC size.

What I am asking is this:

Given the normal compression differences between petrol and diesel engines, what is the engine size equivalency of the two?

If I am replacing a K241 (10 hp) with a diesel engine, what size diesel is equivalent to the K241 being removed?

Do you choose an engine strictly based on equivalent HP, by CC size, or what?

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Heres a couple of my general observations, they maybe juvenile but I had not seen them mentioned....

1) Desiel prices are going through the roof, so the savings in consumption maybe out weighted by the increased overall cost.

2) Small desiels stink..... I mean smell like backend bodily functions. I've seen, heard and went home smelling like desiel fumes with one of those things running near by. I couldn't take that working all day.

Don't get me wrong, its an option but for what you are looking for, examine your Briggs.

Now I'm probably one of only one around here that has used Clones (gas versions) and has nothing bad to say about them.

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I have had some diesel engines in trucks was very happy with them but I know they turn much less RPMs, the v8 fords I had didn't really like being pushed to hard and didn't perform any better at high rpms than lower ones. Do the small engines do the same? And if so how would they run the blower or mower decks or tillers that require high RPMS to run them

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The 10 horse diesel is equivalent in size to K241. They're rated at 3600 rpms so they'll run attachments at the same speed as a gas engine.

My 4 horse doesn't smoke much or smell bad at all. The 13 horse smokes like a freight train if you push it hard or start it cold, that's also when it stinks. Having grown up around diesel engines I'm used to it and it doesn't bother me, but I could see how it might bother some people.

As far as economy, my 4 horse uses 1/3 the fuel as the gas engine it replaced. The 13 horse replaced a 20 horse Onan and probably uses 1/2 the fuel that the Onan did.

Diesels aren't for everybody but I'm happy with mine.

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The diesel smell for me is also no biggy. I say this as my father is always was a master Diesel repair guy and I always huge around him at the shop and smell them all day and such. So it doesn't bother me. Also, when I use the farm tractor down at the farm last year, the diesel smell brought back memmors of my dad, so I enjoyed it.

Also, my brigg's exhaust smells really bad compared to other engines I have used in the past, so I even is the diesel stinks, I don't care. I really want the diesel for its large power band, great use of fuel and ease of maintence and initial cost. I think overall it will be a great thing to try and I can't wait to do it.

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I am gonna throw in my 2 cents on this, I drive truck for a living so I am around diesels all the time. I also have a diesel bobcat, it has a 26 hp. Deutz in it. I had a gas bobcat prior to this that was 34 hp. although they were similar in every respect (except for the engine) my current one with 8 hp. less, would run circles around the former machine. As far as the engine in my tractors? Well, if one goes, there will be a diesel in its place. Now as to our trucks at work, the one I drive is an automatic. It has a 375 hp Cummins ISX in it and it gets around 4mpg. The standards with 9 spds. average 5.5mpg. I wonder if there would be a difference between 8spd's and hydros. My gas Bobcat burned about 1.5 gph. moving snow, whereas my diesel burns around a 1/2 gph. Economical YES, smelly YES, hard cold starting YES, but I still prefer them. Pat

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:thumbs:

I had an interesting thought while reading this thread, and wondered if any of you have a reasonable answer.

My understanding of engines in general is not my strong suite, so bear with me here.

Gas engines operate at roughly 8 to 9:1 compression ratios. Diesels around 20:1. Therefore I would assume diesels have a much higher (~ x2) HP rating for equivalent CC size.

What I am asking is this:

Given the normal compression differences between petrol and diesel engines, what is the engine size equivalency of the two?

If I am replacing a K241 (10 hp) with a diesel engine, what size diesel is equivalent to the K241 being removed?

Do you choose an engine strictly based on equivalent HP, by CC size, or what?

HP is a multiple of RPM x torque, diesel engines typically have less HP per displacement compared to gas engines due to the gas engine running at higher RPM's . That said a gas and diesel engine with the same HP rating at 3600 RPM can both do the same amount of work at that RPM. The big advantage for the diesel is unlike a gas engine they have a nearly flat torque curve and will pull much stronger when lugged under load where a gas engine will just fall out of it's peak power band when lugged, so the diesel easily wins in this scenario. And yes if my Kohler K241 ever dies I would replace it with a diesel of the same HP rating.

Tim

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So, would a 10Hp diesel be fine or should ia spend the extra 200 and get a 13hp? I'm thinking the 10 would do fine but I'm no expert on these things. all I want it to do is mow and snowblow using a 44in 2 stage blower and a 42in rear discharge mowing deck.

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I'm no expert on diesels either, but I do know that they tend to have a ton of low down torque.

My wife for a while had a VW Golf Turbo Diesel, and that thing was a rocketship - a ton of low down torque till the turbo got spooled up which gave it its top end power, all in a package that got 45 mpg.

I havent taken the time to analyse these graphs, but for anyone that likes numbers, here are HP and Torque curves for the Carrol Stream version of the 10 hp diesel, and a 16HP Onan:

CS186ES-10DieselClone.jpg

P216Gpowercurves1.jpg

For sh!ts and giggles here's the curves for the 20 HP Onan

P220Gpowercurves1.jpg

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The last time I looked on ebay for a diesel chinese clone of the Yanmar, I was looking at the 10 horsepower version. The seller claimed that a 10 horse diesel motor would provide you with the performance of a 12 to 16 horsepower gas engine. The diesel engine will provide you with more torque than a gasoline engine of equivalent horsepower.

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Wow that little 10Hp is dang close in torque curve to the 16HP onan. wow.

So, it really seems like I will try the 10HP diesel. It should be able to keep up at load with the 16HP briggs. I will also see about getting a 13Hp diesel. I may just go with that one. Anyone know of any cheap soures?

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Is that the correct torque curve for the 10hp diesel (~25N-m @ 3600 rpm is more like 12.6hp)

My math might be wrong:

(25 N-m)*(2*pi)*(3600 rpm/60) = 9424 W -> (9424/745.7) = ~ 12.6 hp

:thumbs:

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I think the hp calc is right:

If torque is in N-m the rpm-hp conversion factor is: {745.7 (w/hp)}*{60 rev/sec}/{2pi (arclength)} = 7171

If torque is in ft-lbf the rpm-hp conversion factor is: {550 (lbf-ft/s)/hp)}*{60 rev/sec}/{2pi (arclength)} = 5252

Then hp = T*rpm/7171 for N-m torque or T*rpm/5252 for ft-lbf torque.

So... what's up with this 12.6 hp (10hp diesel)? What have I done wrong here?!! Any of you math wonks or motorheads able to see what I'm doing wrong?

Also, the comparison only looks good when you compare the max diesel torque curve with the "continuous" P216G curve which only peaks at around 13hp. For the max vs. max comparison the Onan has a 22% advantage at the 3600 rpm threshold. No matter how you slice it, it takes just over 23 ft-lbs of torque at 3600 rpm to get 16 hp, whether its diesel, gas, bananas, or rubber band powered - hp is hp.

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I think the hp calc is right:

If torque is in N-m the rpm-hp conversion factor is: {745.7 (w/hp)}*{60 rev/sec}/{2pi (arclength)} = 7171

If torque is in ft-lbf the rpm-hp conversion factor is: {550 (lbf-ft/s)/hp)}*{60 rev/sec}/{2pi (arclength)} = 5252

Then hp = T*rpm/7171 for N-m torque or T*rpm/5252 for ft-lbf torque.

So... what's up with this 12.6 hp (10hp diesel)? What have I done wrong here?!! Any of you math wonks or motorheads able to see what I'm doing wrong?

Looks like 7.5 KW peak in the chart so 7.5/1.341 = 10.07 hp. If you want to do the conversion from torque / RPM here's the formula :

http://www.wisc-online.com/Objects/ViewObj...spx?ID=ENG17504

tm

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