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TT

Non-OEM Electric lift discussion

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TT

I have to open this up here so it can be discussed freely -- without hijacking another certain thread.

Kelly -- you have questions and opinions, and so do I. :thumbs:

What say we dig into this a little deeper on our own and see what we can make of it? :thumbs:

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Nick

First question might be would you want to replicate the factory lift kit, do a rear only like was mentioned in Johnny lift post or something completley different. Whatever is built I gues you need to come up with the rated lifting/holding power needed of the electric actuator. If I had room for a battery on the Load Ranger I could make a 3 point lift with a bit less work. :thumbs:

Nick in Ohio

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Rollerman

I know it's not a true "Electric Lift" but the 416-8 in my avatar has an electric over hydraulic pump that works stock Wheel Horse hyd parts.

These pumps are available through "Northern Hydraulics" & similiar places...also an RV salvage would be a good place to look.

It's a very slick setup & I'll try & add some better pics if anyone has an interest?

I can say the electric lifts & my electric over hyd are much slower than the factory hyd setup.

I suppose a hi speed actuator could be bought..but probably would not have the torque & be somewhat more expensive.

My 2 cents...... :thumbs:

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Nick

Electric over hydraulic could be a good way to go. Not sure how many models had them but some Toro Wheel horse VS tractors had an electric hydraulic unit. Might find a junk one and pull off out the lift. Dad even had one and I forget the model number :thumbs: something 19.

Nick in Ohio

Found it, it was a 269 Hydro. The pump, part #1, is $828 new

_1030024.gif

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Kelly

Going by the other tread, if I was to make a center mount electric lift, And this is being said with out looking at a tractor, I would mount it pushing from the rear at the trans mounting plate, with a bracket of some kind bolted to the rockshaft pointing somewhat down (again I'd have to look to get the angle) that way when it pushed out it would lift, basicly the same set up as a hydro has just moved to the middle of the tractor, but this would only work with rear or front mounted att. Would be nice with my snowblower, on a stick tractor. I have used electric over hyd. set ups they are kinda slow but have lots of power, it was a frame mach. at a bodyshop. just my 2 cents

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TT

OK..... might as well pick it up here:

earlylift.jpg

1977backhyd.jpg

This is the typical 1978 & up hydraulic or manual lift:

1978andup.jpg

We need some parts drawings for reference, right? :thumbs:

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Nick

The 269-H electric/hydro lift I used was slow but about the same speed as a standard electric actuator. Room for the hydro unit could be a problem but it should have similar lift and holding power compared to a factory hydro lift.

Nick in Ohio

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TT

What you'll see in both of the drawings related to non-manual lift is an external arm that's about 33% longer than the actual lift attachment arm on the "bellcrank"

This was essentially done to increase the leverage factor and multiply the torque output of the cylinder or actuator. The external arm also moves the cylinder/actuator to the outside of the frame, where it is not only protected, but easily accessed for repairs or adjustments. There is also more room (not much) to mount the cylinder or actuator on the outside of the frame. By utilizing the lift shaft in this manner, it allows all attachments (front middle, and rear) to be raised and lowered in the conventional manner of using the manual lift handle.

If you "pirate" one of the arms on the bellcrank as an attachment point for the cylinder/actuator, you have defeated 50% of the purpose of having a lift on the tractor.

If any attachment needs powered lift, I'd say it is the snowthrower/blowers. Ultimately, the "flag" has to attach to the vertical bellcrank arm - which is the same arm that would be used by the rear lift cable. Any installation of a cylinder or actuator in this area would prohibit the attachment of the flag and would grossly interfere with the actual lift tube itself. As the flag and lift tube are moved forward, the rising thrower/blower "pulls" the tube up very close to the bottom of the front axle of the tractor. I don't have my "big" thrower mounted on anything currently, but I would estimate a maximum of four inches of clearance between the lift tube and the frame/lower steering shaft.

(OK -- taking a break :thumbs: )

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kj4kicks

Just a thought here....

Maybe use the factory style hydro lift cylinder/arm setup, but power it with a small belt driven automotive power steering (or something similar) pump, mounted to the engine. Many of them use a remote resovoir that could be tucked away under the hood somewhere.

The FEL uses a belt driven pump in the same manner, except that the entire left pillar is the resovoir.

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Nick

Eldon,

A belt driven pump could be the best answer. We did the same thing on a Bolens and my brother used a power steering pump for a truck snow plow that lasted for years. Any small pump could work and it doesnt take much of a reservoir.

The belt driven pump also adds all kinds of ideas. Add a 2 spool valve and then aux hydraulic outputs front and rear for attachments. :thumbs:

Nick in Ohio

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kj4kicks

Forgot to add the obvious: By changing to a hydro-lift bellcrank, even the manual trans guys can use this setup !

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TT

I've been typing for 20 minutes, so I know you guys beat me to some of this -- but I'm NOT erasing it now! :D

One of my friends and I were just discussing that set-up a little while ago.

The reservoir for hydraulic lift on the hydro tractors is the tranaxle. The newer hydros use "motor oil" in the entire system, and my friend actually runs motor oil in all of his 8 speeds but one. (he runs ATF in his puller) We were thinking about running a suction line in to the "old" fill hole location on the right rear corner of the transaxle and returning the oil through the dipstick tube location. There's lots of room to mount a filter back there too. :thumbs:

A small log splitter-type gear pump could be mounted on a custom adjustable bracket above the starter and tied in with the cylinder head bolts. (like a starter/generator mount) Install a S/G pulley on the flywheel and a matching pulley on the pump, and put a belt and guard on it for "live hydraulics". This could be hooked to an OEM control valve and cylinder for normal attachment lift function, and possibly -- with the installation of another control valve and some lines with quick couplers -- a power angle dozer or grader blade, etc.! :thumbs:

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TT

And, DUH ! I almost forgot convertible top pumps/motors. These have their own reservoir, are 12V DC and have pressure "both ways".

The ones used in the 80's/90's Mustangs aren't very big either!

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T-Mo

This is an interesting topic and makes for a good read. The belt driven pumps is what JD used for it's hydraulic lifts for its older 110/112 tractors and for the 200 series tractors. The idea of using a bell crank from a hydro should work to provide the extra leverage. To convert a manual lift JD to either an electric lift or hydraulic lift usually meant obtaining a pedestal from a donor tractor that was set up for it. As long as you have the real estate under the hood, the belt driven pumps sounds like the best solution. But, I'm not as familiar with these setup as some of you are.

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TT

Well, Terry........

I can't think of a more simple design than the first accessory hydraulic lift kit that was offered for WH tractors -- the good old self-contained HY-2.

Pump body/reservoir/control valve all in one unit, add-on engine pulley, two hoses, a cylinder with the appropriate mounting bracket, and a "conversion" bellcrank.

HY-2lift.jpg

With the exception of an external control (spool) valve, this wouldn't be tough to duplicate.

Here's another thought for a cylinder: older Fords with "power assist" steering used a nice little dual-action hydraulic cylinder down at the tie rods. I'll have to investigate the size when I get my fingers on one again. :thumbs:

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Nick

I cant find any pumps with specifications for lift and suction hose length but the oil reservoir might need to be at or above the inlet for some pumps. I did see some information that said a power steering pump could be up to 12" above the oil level but that must vary by pump manufacturer and model.

Nick in Ohio

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TT

He actually was going to try this on a C-175 with a K-321 on it now.

We figured another option would be to move the battery down to the frame and install a reservoir up where the battery used to be -- basically at the same height as the pump. :thumbs:

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Kelly

Hay I'm home from work and boy did I think about this topic while mindlessly sanding bondo, What about the clutch/brake linkage? depending on what years your doing, 77 and older or newer, I know it could be modified, but if your talking about using a hydro lift bellcrank they don't have that in the way.

I like the idea of using a small pump (power steering) with a remote resevoir and the hydro bellcrank. I need to go look at my parts pile.

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TT

That's strange! I just came in from the shop with a few pictures and a "critical" measurement.

The stroke on a cylinder or actuator would need to be 7 inches to move the outside arm through its arc of full travel. (pre-'77) :thumbs:

view electric actuator (it might be a little light-duty, but they have more)

This is (was?) a 1977 C-160:

67de8072.jpg

And since I was halfway up the hill behind the shop I took an "aerial" photo of my parts pile :D

022008012.jpg

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Kelly

I've got a pile like that but mine is in the barn I just can't figure out what can go out side? I see the brake linkage on that tractor I'm sure it could be retrofited to a stick tractor.

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Kelly

By the way, I don't know what it is for sure (trailer parts?) in front of the RER cub, you have a axle with bolt on wheels, I picked up a set of spindles I cut off a toro grounds keeper? very old, When I got home I was looking at them, and I thought try them on my 520 forward swept axle so I pulled a hub, it was a perfect fit, so they are going on my FEL tractor and I can change wheels with out messing with the bearings and with the loader I don't need a jack.

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TT

This is kind of a hybrid unit -- a 1970 Charger 12 frame (and hoodstand) with a three speed transaxle. (The beginning of the "Wicked Wheel Horse" / "Rat Rod" tractor. :D ) There may be a clearance problem with the brake drum/band, but without trying it "for real", I don't really know. :scratchead:

The electric lift kit for the '75 / '76 gear drive tractors (P/N 84222) uses the exact same bellcrank/lift arm shaft (P/N 6615) as the Electro 12 with hydraulic lift. That should tell us something, huh? :scratchead:

I believe the clutch rod could be bent to clear a hydraulic cylinder too. The electric lift kit had a special rod, and it should be the same principal.

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TT

By the way, I don't know what it is for sure (trailer parts?) in front of the RER cub, you have a axle with bolt on wheels, I picked up a set of spindles I cut off a toro grounds keeper? very old, When I got home I was looking at them, and I thought try them on my 520 forward swept axle so I pulled a hub, it was a perfect fit, so they are going on my FEL tractor and I can change wheels with out messing with the bearings and with the loader I don't need a jack.

That is a heavy-duty axle assembly from a portable conveyor. It has 4.00/4.80 X 8 tires that I thought I could use on one of the round hoods. It was free :thumbs: and might actually end up being the basis for a sulky/cooler cart for the shows.

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Nick

Kelly, Those Groundsmasters did have the same 1" bearing on the rear steering axle as a 520, I used one of mine when we had a flat. My Load Ranger has the comlete axle on the front just cut the rim width down. :thumbs: My groundsmaster rims were only 6" though not 8".

th_lawnranger1.jpgth_front004.jpgth_rims001.jpg

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Kelly

This probably was not a grounds master, I'll try to give a decription, It looked like a box on the back aprox. 4'x 5' all metal, with a seat going all the way acrossed the front of the box, it had a trike style front end with a 23x8.50x12 front wheel regular tractor rim, with the engine mounted right above it(7hp kohler I bought) it was belt drive to a jack shaft with a pulley tensioner/ clutch with a chain drive down to the wheel, the rear axle was a piece of square tubing with spindles welded on the ends, that's where I cut it. it had I think 18x10x8 tires on it but it's the same four bolt as a boat trailer. I'm not sure what it was. sorry :thumbs:

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