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About Phil902

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Wheel Horse Information

  • favoritemodel
    C 161 Twin auto

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  • Location
    Barrington NH

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  1. Thanks Garry. If the rattle reappears I'll try that.
  2. Here are pictures. Garry, thanks for the belt info. I also found an old post where you posted a link to the service manuals. Thanks for that also. I apologize for not specifying earlier that I have the twin. Per Wallfish's suggestion, I cut the old belt. It's 84 1/2, and was loose enough that the idler assembly rattled like a coffee can full of rocks when disengaged. I measured the new belt, it's exactly 84 1/2. 953, it's hard to see, but I think the spacer is moving in the cutout. I put a very light coat of grease on today wherever metal on metal occurs. Less resistance, same degree of throw. The spring doesn't seem to change position much if at all between engaged and disengaged. The original part number for the pulley was 7434. That changed to Toro part 112426. The Toro dealer told me it must have changed again, because its not in his database. Several places had aftermarket replacements for both the WH and the Toro numbers. I went with the Stens, I've had good luck with them. For what its worth, when I saw the seized pulley, I didn't pay any attention to positioning of levers and arms. I thought it would be like the idler pulleys I'd done on a couple of my cars; take off tension, unbolt, remove, replace. I was surprised when everything slammed down when I removed the pulley. Without the pulley attached, the arm gets pulled all the way down. That will also happen if the belt is above the pulley. Someone was in here before me at some point. There was no washer or cotter pin on the end of the stud thru the bottom of the clutch lever and there was no washer between parts as shown on the IPL diagram. The IPL shows an Eslock nut on what is a smooth unthreaded stud in front of where the stud enters the bottom of the clutch lever. That makes no sense to me even if it was a threaded shaft. This probably one of those deals where I bruise my forehead slapping it when the issue is recognized. Ill take the pain if somebody else's eyes can spot the trouble. I appreciate the help, and this site.
  3. Idler Pulley failed. Replaced it and the drive belt which had chunks missing out of the underside. The pulley came from Stens, and matched up perfectly with the old one. After reading several posts here I went with a TSC belt, 85x5/8. I had a really hard time getting the belt on. Partly due to my worn out hands, and lack of strength. Now, the lever that engages/disengages the clutch is fully up, (disengage position), and won't go fully down to engage position. However, the tractor drives fine, stops and moves the motion/speed lever to neutral when I step on the brake, and the tractor is way faster than before. The belt is so tight that the pulley cant fully descend but the old belt measures roughly 85, using a metal carpenter's tape as carefully as possible, I may have the assorted pieces assembled incorrectly. The IPL and service manual are not much help in that regard. In fact the IPL diagram shows the engagement control lever upside down.) I have tried every configuration possible, I think, I also tried with the brake set, and the brake off. Any suggestions?
  4. 417A Won't move??

    Thanks, 953. A neighbor tuned me in to that the first time he saw me going slowly by at low RPM. The info I was coming on to ask for was the size of the idler pulley. Mine seized, and in taking it off, I found a few pieces shown on the IPL diagram were not present on the tractor: cotter pin, washers, and a nut. The pulley was marked nhi, and a Google search revealed that to be New Hampshire Industries out of Claremont. I began wondering if the pulley was correct, or a "close enough". A search of the forum led me to Gary's post with the info I was looking for; love this site.
  5. 417A Won't move??

    Thanks. First time I've seen anything like that, not that I'm dripping with Wheel Horse experience .
  6. 417A Won't move??

    What is the purpose of the fan attached to the rear pulley? Also a thank you to Gary, as I was coming on today to ask for this exact information.
  7. No Crank, I may have killed my horse

    Thank you all so much. Hydraulics will probably be next, Cylinder works, but is leaking, and maybe the pump, but they will most likely have to wait until Spring.
  8. No Crank, I may have killed my horse

    Updating and begging.....I rewired 90% of my C-161. I didn't do the headlights, no urgency and busted lens, and I didn't do the rectifier, as I didn't want to pull the flywheel if I didn't have to. I replaced the coil, and it started right up; I obviously fried it with the relay jumper. Now to the kill relay. I had a new 5 pin relay in my horde that was for a trim/tilt motor on a 115 hp outboard I sold awhile ago. It's labeled exactly like the relay 953 posted. I've spent the last week reading everything I could find on RS related to kill relays on C series tractors; I've watched a few dozen you-tubers explaining the mysteries of relays (or trying to). The end result is I'm still confused and paranoid I'll kill another coil. I do think I now understand how it works, please correct me if I'm wrong; the key in the "run (or start)" position energizes a switch in the relay which opens, preventing the magneto from completing a path to ground through the ground connection in the relay. The power to the relay switch comes from the battery through the ignition switch terminal and then the PTO interlock. Turning the key "off" (or leaving the seat with the PTO engaged if properly wired) kills the power and causes the switch to close, completing the path to ground and shutting down the engine. I think (but I'm not at all sure) that the wire from the PTO to the relay should be connected to the relay terminal labeled "86", and the ground wire from the tractor frame to terminal "85". After that I'm lost, and if that much is wrong, I'm lost and adrift. Terms on the schematic like High Power Feed and High Power Output scare me as I can still see the jumper wire smoking. I could use a lifeline. In other news, I took the badly rusted and partially seized mule off. I tried electrolysis for the first time, since my 30 gallon compressor kept popping the breaker after using a die grinder and wire cup or wheel for awhile. I was impressed with the result after a short time in the tank and a little brushing . (I was even more impressed that I didn't electrocute myself in the process.) I saw a couple of cool ideas here on getting the pulleys off which I'll try this weekend. I cant see a bearing. It appears to be a band of metal that the pulley(s) is riding on? Slow progress is still progress. I'm grateful for the help I've received on this; on my own, I would have stuck it in a corner of the yard by now and hoped the brush overgrew it before my wife noticed it and mocked me incessantly.
  9. No Crank, I may have killed my horse

    Thanks. I started rewiring today. Tedious, to say the least. I'll try the ohms test after I rewire. The wire going to the coil presently is a pretty light gauge. I'm using 14 across the board. Thanks 953, if I could prevail on you for some clarification (12v electrical is like calculus to me). The current relay has a terminal for power in from the PTO interlock; a terminal for a ground wire to the frame; and a terminal for the wire to the magneto. With the 5 pin module, would the power in be 86, ground 85, and magneto wire 87 ? I assume one pin doesn't get used, the NO or NC pin. In my configuration, does the 4th wire get eliminated from the terminal block or capped off? Besides being 12v, is there a particular amp rating I need the relay to be?
  10. No Crank, I may have killed my horse

    After looking at the kill relay service bulletin, the wiring came to me wrong. The magneto wire and the ground wire were switched, and I stayed with it. I also could have used the advice about not jumpering the connectors. Fortunately, the coil isn't that expensive and is readily available. Live and learn. If I ever do this again, I'll "Aldon-ize" the wiring before I do anything else. I'm still not sure the kill relay was/is the problem though; I believe when I pulled the wire to the magneto from the coil in my second round of T/S, that should have isolated the kill circuit on the magneto, no? If that was the problem, it should have started??
  11. No Crank, I may have killed my horse

    Thanks for the downloads Garry. I checked to see if the cable was there, intact and secure in my initial T/S, but I hadn't considered it might be in poor condition internally. I'll recheck that. Thanks also Aldon and 953. When I got the tractor, I started the engine for the first time using an auxiliary gas tank. Once I saw it would run, I replaced the fuel line and filter and rinsed the empty gas tank, and started chasing the electrical. I changed the fluids and I cleaned the carb when I thought I had the electrical solved, as it was hunting. It had a good amount of water in the bowl, but was relatively clean. Ultrasonic bath anyway. Running good now, once it starts. I'm definitely going to fully rewire. Any info on wire size(s) ? It has everything from what looks like 18 or 20 gauge to 14 gauge in there now. The IPL and manuals seem to only reference colors not sizes. I've gone to 2 NAPA's trying to locate a replacement for the kill relay, Neither one could help, other than a referral to a shop in Southern Maine where they do a lot of vintage tractors. I haven't tried there yet. I though I might just get something modern that would work, but with no markings on the case, and no apparent familiarity with tractors neither shop wanted to hazard a guess.
  12. Sorry this so long, but I'm trying to give a complete picture. I said in Grey Ghost's no crank post that I thought I had solved my C-161 no crank situation when I replaced a faulty fuse holder. Over the last two days though, it died several times while riding it, and then today when starting....couple of turns and then silence. Twice it restarted right away with the key; the other times it would start when I hooked a jumper to the starter and the positive side of the battery, and also when I jumped the battery side of the solenoid (new) to the small solenoid post. Then the key would work the next time. The PTO switch is new and had proper continuity as shown in the manual. The other switches were jumpered when I got it, and still are. I tried to fix the pedal switch by installing a missing e-clip to help the parking brake cam align properly. The switch is intermittently bad, as it does not fully release every time. The seat doesn't contact that switch, and as it has no effect when the PTO isn't engaged, and as I don't have any attachments yet, that's a problem for another day. When I was checking the kill relay wire connections, it would click and then not click. The PO rewired at some point, and spliced new wires into the old wires with crimp connectors near the ignition switch. I replaced the ignition switch due to corrosion, and the gang connectors for the ignition and PTO interlock, as they fell apart. He left an excessive amount of wire in the well under the battery and control panel. When I decided this morning to trace each of the wires looking for a ground, I found that the jumpered wire from the pedal switch to the solenoid was caught in the gears at the end of the steering wheel shaft, and mangled. I shortened it, reconnected it to the wire that goes to the PTO switch, and it cranked. But no start. Fuel flowing, spark check, no spark. I got my test light, I had voltage to the kill relay purple wire in. I had previously sanded the relay mount and the frame, and replaced the ground wire. My test light probe touched the relay mount plate, and it lit, and the relay clicked. It also lit and clicked on the relay case in one small area near the ground screw. I disconnected the black wire to the magneto, still no spark. I disconnected the purple wire, then both wires. No spark. Then I got stupid, I think.....I bypassed the relay by jumpering the two wires together. No spark, and a hot jumper wire. I removed the kill wire at the magneto, no spark, but I probably fried it sending voltage down to it. I'm at a loss as to what I did earlier to kill the spark, and what to do about the kill relay, which I suspect is bad, intermittently. Any suggestions on how and what to test next? On the bright side, I suspect the steering will be a lot smoother now....
  13. 312 Won't Crank Over????

    Grey Ghost, I've spent a month trying to solve the same problem on a new-to-me C-161, and today I did. Loooong story short, because they were badly corroded, I first replaced the ignition and solenoid, without any change, I replaced the in-line fuse, even though it tested OK. After messing with everything I could think of, I set out to re-check all connections and grounds. I decided to jumper around the in-line fuse holder, even though it looked fine before and after initially cleaning it and sanding the contact ends . She fired right up. Hope that gives you some ideas for out of the box testing. oldredrider: , I got a three post solenoid at my local NAPA, 24 bucks. They wanted to see what I was trying to replace, went in the back and came out with a winner.
  14. I Installed the brake lining per your instruction, worked like a charm. One tip I'd like to pass along....when I got the lining, I put it in place on the brake band dry, no glue, and used 5 wire ties spread out from one end to the other to hold it in place. It conformed tightly to the band. I left it there for 3 days until I picked up the Permatex. When I took off the wire ties, It stayed in the same position. I applied the RTV to the band, put the lining back in place, and clamped it with as many spring clamps as I could fit. The pre-forming made it a piece of cake to put on. Thanks for the quick delivery and excellent instructions.
  15. Thank you all. Garry that IPL is exactly what I was looking for. I must have skipped right over it when I scrolled through all the manuals here. After seeing the missing rear brake rod, it looks like I might be able to fabricate one. A lot of steel trees will probably die in the process. Lee1977, they aren't configured the same, but your photo gave me enough understanding of the mechanics so that I could probably have done a fabrication from it. Now to order a brake lining and get to cleaning the drum and band. Thank you all again, and I'm sure I'll be back for more help. Phil O'D